Anybody know if the Muncie 4-speed is internally lubricated?

"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher) 01/11/2019 at 10:14 • Filed to: I burnt that nail gun up in two hours!

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OK, so here’s an oddly specific question, is the Muncie MY8/M19 4-speed manual transmission that GM put into the ‘84 Fiero internally lubricated? The hive-mind around here knows a lot of random stuff, so I figured one of you lovable buncha loons might know.

Background: I’m considering offering a few hundred bucks to buy this ‘84 Fiero for my next rallycross adventure. It would be in violation of my desire to buy something that’s already running ... but I’m tempted.

Anyways, in order for a vehicle to be suitable for flat towing, it’s transmission has to be internally lubricated. That means the engine doesn’t have to be running in order to keep the trans from burning up.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 10:29

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Okay lets think this through:

1. It’s a manual transmission car.

2. I’ve never heard of a manual transmission car not having gear oil.

3. Why do we even care? It would be towed in neutral right?

So... yes you should buy it.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/11/2019 at 10:34

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Neutral still leaves the output half of the trans spinning. 

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/11/2019 at 10:35

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Not all manual transmissions are internally lubricated. If this is one of those transmissions, it will be completely shithoused by the time I get it to the track once.

jimz > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 10:46

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I’ve never heard of a manual transmission with pressurized lubrication.  Automatics need the engine running because the transmission’s pump is driven by the torque converter snout.  Manuals are just simply splash lubricated. 

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 10:46

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I think it’ll be fine. Most manual   transmissions lubricante themselves from the gears sp lashing through the oil and flinging it everywhere, so yes, they’re “internally lubricated”. I don’t know that’s the correct term for what you’re describing, though .

The bigger concern is the risk of it popping into gear if you hit a bump and spinning the engine over until it pops. You also can’t flat  tow something if it breaks suspension components while rallycrossing. Trailers exist for a reason.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > jimz 01/11/2019 at 10:50

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This is what I thought , and a ferio is not exactly the peak of automotive technology.

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/11/2019 at 10:54

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No, and this being an ‘84 is the most primitive of them all.

EngineerWithTools > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 10:54

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Something that old is likely to have plenty of lubrication on the exterior of the transmission.

(I’ll see myself out.)

shop-teacher > jimz 01/11/2019 at 10:55

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Gotcha, thanks.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 10:57

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There used to be an OPPO who had totally built a Ferio, I forgot who it was I remember the posts around 2012-2014. I think they did a GM 3.8L with supercharger swap.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 11:01

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I was thinking of you the other day. My coworker said her son sold his sunfire (ran and drove) for $150CDN to a scrap dealer.

That is literally like $5 US.  And we don’t live in a rust area.  I could have bought it and sent it to you 

Discerning > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 11:01

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How much more does a flatbed trailer weigh than a trailer dolly? Are you going the dolly route to avoid towing too much weight? You’ll have more control with a flatbed trailer too.

shop-teacher > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 01/11/2019 at 11:02

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I can’t afford a trailer. I flat-towed the RallyMetro back and forth for two seasons. If something were to break that made it unable to be flat towed home , I would have to leave it there and come back the next weekend with a Uhaul trailer.

I know you’re against flat towing, as we’ve discussed it before. I live in the flat lands. T he biggest elevation change I traverse in the 90 miles between the rallycross course and back are a couple of overpasses.

shop-teacher > EngineerWithTools 01/11/2019 at 11:02

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*rimshot*

shop-teacher > Discerning 01/11/2019 at 11:04

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I can’t afford a trailer.  I’m not even going the dolly route.  I want to use a tow bar and flat tow it, like I did with the RallyMetro.

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/11/2019 at 11:05

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I vaguely remember that.  That’s a common swap.  I just want to beat the thing up, I don’t want to engine swap it :)

shop-teacher > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 01/11/2019 at 11:05

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Oh man! That would’ve been perfect :)

kanadanmajava1 > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 11:11

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I’m pretty su r e that the oil will be flown nicely by the output side. T h e d e s i g n l o o k s l i k e a v e r y n o r m a l F W D s t y l e . The picture i s r e p r e se n t i n g a M Y8/M19 4 - s p e e d m o d e l .

Discerning > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 11:15

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Bu t you can rent one for 60 bucks per day from uhaul . Is this a one-time tow or a reoccurring tow?

AkursedX > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 11:36

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The GM Muncie 4-spd manual in the Fiero holds about 6qts of fluid.  5w30 was the original recommendation but GM syncromesh is now the accepted way to go.

shop-teacher > AkursedX 01/11/2019 at 12:05

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Good to know, thanks!

shop-teacher > Discerning 01/11/2019 at 12:08

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Reoccur ring. Renting a trailer for each event will cost me $300- 400/year.

shop-teacher > kanadanmajava1 01/11/2019 at 12:08

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Cool, thanks!

CaptDale - is secretly British > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 12:13

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As a previous Fiero owner this is what I did. If I recall I may have added GM’s limited slip additive to it too... I don’t recall now. I know it helps in the T56 in my GTO.

shop-teacher > CaptDale - is secretly British 01/11/2019 at 12:46

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Cool, thanks!

Discerning > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 13:26

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Im afraid you might be sol, unfortunately 

The general rule of thumb is to not flat tow anything unless it’s manual and either rwd or 4wd with a transfer case that includes neutral. The fiero obviously essentially falls within the fwd column. Unless you could decouple from the t ranny, I don't see how you could do it without it being a PITA

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 14:31

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You might want to double check your local towing regulations. It would be illegal to tow something as heavy as a Fiero here without trailer brakes, and frankly most of this province is flat too, and the trailer regs are a lot more lax here than in other places I’ve lived. A Metro you’d get away with as its under the 2000lb limit, so long as it’s less than half the tow vehicle’s weight. I doubt you’d ever get in trouble just for towing problems, but it’s the sort of thing that would compound other problems, that could void insurance policies, etc.

The only time I’ve had a near miss with towing was at 45 mph, on a flat and level (but not straight) section of dry  road. Within towing limits of vehicle (unusual for me, I know) , but unbraked, and definitely over the legal limit. I came up within three feet of the vehicle in front of me. Had I hit the vehicle in front, even a gentle tap, things would not have been good. 

shop-teacher > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 01/11/2019 at 15:31

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We can go up to 3,000 pounds without brakes here.

shop-teacher > Discerning 01/11/2019 at 15:54

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There are lots of FWD vehicles that can be flat towed. I just flat towed a Chevy Metro for two years. Pretty much every manual transmission Saturn can be flat towed. Neons can be flat towed. HHRs/Cobalts , J-bodies ....

Discerning > shop-teacher 01/11/2019 at 20:06

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How can they be towed? Do they have tranny pumps that work with the engine not running?

shop-teacher > Discerning 01/12/2019 at 02:28

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That’s where the internally lubricated part comes in. There are FWD vehicles with internally lubricated transmissions that do not require an external pump. That’s really where my knowledge level ends . If you read through some of the other replies, according to some other Oppos who know more than I, most manual transmissions, be they rear wheel drive or front wheel drive, are internally splash lubricated. So, for them in makes no difference whether the engine is running or not.

Discerning > shop-teacher 01/12/2019 at 08:32

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I did not know this. The general rule of thumb for RV flat towing is manual rwd or 4x4. But maybe that's because there are so few manual fwd cars left.

Discerning > shop-teacher 01/12/2019 at 08:38

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I take back my previous comments. Seems the consensus on the RV boards mirrors other posts about fwd with a manual, as you said. It just doesn’t come up because few people own them.

I wonder if the same applies to manual awd cars, like Subaru.

shop-teacher > Discerning 01/12/2019 at 10:14

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No, because they have signed much else going on in the driveline.